A "black magician", "only one", solipsistic self is being SELF-DETERMINED. The problem with this is that any single point location identity is not the real self. The real self pervades ALL spaces, and is ALL viewpoints everywhere/everywhen.

John:
I consider there to be three paths, not two. There is the path of service to self, the path of service to others and the path of surrender. The path of service to self and the path of service to others have to be handled and discreated first, before there is any point in moving on to the path of surrender.

Once on the path of surrender, the concept of self and others becomes a complete nonsense, apart from the primary importance of sustaining ones personal, mind, body and soul in a truly serviceable condition. If you let go of that, it means that you are still hopping back and forwards between the path of service to self and the path of service to others, not able to make up your mind whether to serve others as a victim or as a martyr and crucifying yourself in the process.

Ouran:
Self versus others is a primal (archetypical) level GPM. It occurs just above good verus evil, survive vs succumb and all that lot. My observation of people like John Mcmaster and Jesus is that they made the mistake of occupying ONE TERMINAL.

If a person occupies SELF, and pursues scn/magic as "service to self", then the person opposes "others" and becomes EVIL TO OTHERS. (the black magician and the money and power hungry spiritual cult leader are examples of the result.)

If a person occupies OTHER, and pursues scn/magic as "service to others", then the person opposes "self" and becomes VICTIM TO SELFISHNESS. (jesus' crucifixion and John's overboarding are examples of the result)

The trick is to dissolve the term/oppterm by getting above it to NO SELF. NO SELF is more than no "myself", it is also no "other selves" as well. Or it can be viewed as "ALL selves are myself, and each of them are valid from my viewpoint and from each of their viewpoints individiually and collectively". Whew! What a bunch of words to say a single idea! ;-)

John:
If you are really on the third path, you still think, talk and act as if the other two paths are real but actually know that there is no such thing as paths at all from a spiritual point of view. The truth really is within ourselves. It is completely meaningless for a person who has stepped, with dedication, onto the third path, to ever go back. Thats what I mean when I describe ourselves as "third sides" of the triangle. Not only that, I observe that we are both involved in taking responsibility for the conversion of all available knowledge into a single harmonious viewpoint.

Ouran:
Yeah! :))))))) And that single harmonious viewpoint includes all viewpoints! So to add to your model, let me communcate the observation that a person on the service to self path will after crossing onto the path of surrender, find themselves also serving others! One can then infer that someone on the service to others path, after making it to the path of surrender, will serve self (as one of the others to be served!).

But we are talking apples and oranges with our two sets of paths. I was talking technique/practice, and you were talking intention/affinity it seems. Both are accurate models, and both are useful frameworks. Thank you very much for telling me yours! :)))))

John:
The way my model is coming together at the moment even makes sense of the Christianity stuff, to the extent that something comes from the static, discovers how the mental may be aligned with the spiritual, tries to preach it and gets crucified for his efforts by the GPM shit in which we live. Like Ron Hubbard, Jesus of Nazareth knew what he was doing but screwed up because it wasn't complete duplication. The same goes for the Pilot. Only duplication, not just understanding, will get us forever out of the shit. Knowing how to know is the only way. Knowing what to know is step one. Knowing how to know is step two. Knowing knowing is step three. Bingo.

Ouran:
Very well put. :))))

John:
Real Clear (understanding) should be the end of the path of service to self. Its a dangerous point from which one either descends again as a black magician, into the shit from which one has only just extracted oneself or commences the more effortful ascent through the shit of others and eventually onto the path of surrender, as the self denying white magician or true OT.

You can leave clear out of the picture all together, just making sure that you have flattened the paths of service to self and others before you move onto the path of surrender. The guarrantee of this is verification that you have sorted out negative ego. Otherwise it will get you.

Self determinism is a total con trick. So also is the  ridiculous idea that our individual creations are standalone items. That is the worst crap that Ron promoted, apart possibly from putting far too much attention on the past (which in fact we spend all our time re creating in the present).

The reality is that all creation is co creation. Just because The Creator isn't directly visible isn't any justification for saying there isn't one. Inventing a "GOD" that is anything more than Aware Will Effortlessly Awake In The Void (like ourselves but a hell of a lot more effective) is a nonsense. We must always work with the "As above, as below" concept if we are to avoid the promotion of solipsism. Worship (deep felt appreciation) is probably also a most invaluable training exercise.

Ouran:
Buddha, in his highest OT drill I've seen, says to use appreciation as one of his four boundless states. The other three are affinity, empathy and equanimity. These are done as an actual drill.